In The Thick of It

I think looking back.

One of the biggest lessons
I learned early on, and that was probably,

gosh, sky's probably 24, 25
when I started that business.

And at that time, I still don't think that
I'd even be an up close in a startup.

I didn't probably truly understand
what it is

to be an entrepreneur or a small business
owner and what that took,

and I think I probably took
for granted a little bit,

that just because you start something
or you think you're really smart

like that doesn't really matter.

I mean, it helps, but there's much more
to making that successful.

And I think that being overconfident,
maybe even semi arrogant

about what I thought my capabilities
were compared to everybody else

was something
that got me in trouble. There.

Hey, welcome to In The Thick of It.

I'm your host, Scott Hollrah

In this episode of

In The Thick of It,
we welcome Jeff Francos, founder of ENO8.

Jeff shares his journey
from growing up in Farmersville,

Texas, to becoming a strategic
and innovative entrepreneur.

He reflects on the pivotal moments
that shaped his career

in the technology industry, and challenges
he's faced along the way.

Jeff speaks about the importance
of aligning personal and business visions

and how he navigated partnership dynamics.

Tune in to hear Jeff's story of starting
innovate and insights on software

development, client engagements,
and ways to overcome business plateaus.

Well, joining me in the studio is Jeff
Francis, founder of ENO8.

He has spent his whole career
in the technology space and can't

wait to hear how things came to be
with your current company.

Let's start with this.
Where'd you grow up?

So I grew up in the Dallas area,
small town.

Most people don't hear Farmersville.

It's probably 30 or 40 minutes
from downtown Dallas.

So graduating class of, like, 62 people.

So, yeah.

Small town, but nearby.

Yeah. So kind of generally in this area.

Okay. Yeah.

And growing up,
I assume it was kind of country. Yes.

Very like.

Did you guys live on acreage?
You live on farm?

Like,
I guess acreage by today's standards.

Not really.

I mean, we lived in town, but, you know,
it was large yard and that kind of thing.

And you didn't wake up in the morning
to milk cows.

I didn't, I didn't we did have chickens
in the backyard for a long time.

When I was a kid, though,
which was kind of funny.

But no, I mean, a lot of my friends
lived out in the country,

country outside of Farmersville,
so sort of a good mix,

I think of small town
everybody knows everybody. And,

everybody around town knows your parents
and so keeps you in line.

It was, it was.

And, you know, it's sort of interesting
looking back at it.

I think growing up in a small town
has a lot of pluses and minuses,

you know, and especially I have kids.

And so thinking about, you know,
what's the type of environment

we want them to grow up in
and that kind of thing nowadays.

But one of the cool things
about growing up in a town like I did

is you get the opportunity

to try a lot of things, be involved
in a lot of things simultaneously.

Whereas I think
what I'm seeing today is, you know, kids

have to sort of focus on a particular
something a lot more.

And in order to kind of be competent at it
and get that confidence

and that kind of thing.

So I think that was one of the cool things
about growing up in a smaller town is

you just had a lot of opportunity
to participate

in a lot of different things
and really kind of grow

in a lot of different areas
simultaneously.

What were the kinds of things
that you were involved in?

What do you gravitate toward?

I was sort of an odd duck,
I think in some ways, because

I stayed involved in a variety of things
kind of all the way through high school.

So I was the big sports growing up,
and our town was baseball.

Mainly when you're a younger
and then it becomes football

as you get a little bit older.

I was a Boy Scout, so I was in boy Scouts.

We may talk a little
bit of that about that.

I also played in the band and,

you know, that was something I continued
all the way through high school.

And so I kind of participated
in a lot of different things that had

overlapping or different friend groups.

And so I think looking back,
some of that stuff probably enabled me

to have some of the strengths
that I have today.

I think that's been able to relate
to a variety of different people and build

relationships, keep relationships across
pretty diverse set of people.

You know, I look back and I think a lot of

that may have started,
you know, when I was really young

from sort of having such a variety. Yeah.

What instrument did you play?

I was a trumpet player.

I learned how to play trumpet.

You know, it's funny because I was more
interested in athletics.

I enjoyed that more.

I desired to be really good at that more.

But I had a little bit of a natural talent
for playing the trumpet.

It was easier for me to be good at that
than it was to be good at athletics.

And, what sort of interesting is,

you know, I would look at that kids
who are more naturally gifted than me

at sports, and they didn't have to work
as hard to be good at it.

Right.
And that would almost make me mad, right?

Like they're so good
and they're not trying hard.

But it's funny because I was like that
with something that I was good at,

like I was good at it,
and I didn't try as hard at that.

But I had to try really hard
in order to be competitive with athletics.

But yeah, I did
both of those sort of funny

story like, so this will tell you
about how I was different in a small town.

So only having so many kids and, you know,
the high school, a lot of us played

like both sides of the ball
and football played offense and defense.

Yeah. You had to have a certain number of.

Right.

Yeah. Exactly right.

Probably probably half of us played
both sides of the ball. Right.

And but then I also marched
in the band at halftime.

So get to halftime
and my gosh take off the pads.

And so we had to have the go march
at halftime and then go

put your stuff back on.

And like you saw that Friday night.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

I was gassed by the end of Friday night
playing offense defense.

And yeah.

And you got to march in the halftime.

Oh my God that's right that's right.

But you know it's funny I just had
this conversation with my daughter.

We're driving the car that day.
And we're talking about activities

and let this be too much
and that kind of thing.

And she was kind of concerned
about taking something on.

And, you know,

there was a quote
that I thought about that

I shared with her
that and I don't know where it came from,

but if you want something done,
give it to a busy person.

Man, I was thinking the exact same things.

My dad used to say that every time it is,
I think it's true, right?

I mean, I look at that

even as I, you know, got into college,
I think I made the best grades I ever made

was the couple of semesters
towards the end,

when I was busier than I ever was,
I really overloaded.

But there's something about

being in action consistently
that just sort of feeds itself.

And I was able to tie it to her
recent science lesson.

Luckily,
they're studying Newton's law. Right.

And we were talking about
and I just tell her, it's like, you know,

all you guys are saying, right?

Like things in motion
tend to stay in motion.

Things at rest tend to stay at rest.

It's like give something to a busy person.

It gets done.

People that stay in motion stay in motion.

And when I feel least productive is
when I don't have as much on my plate.

And maybe not in that groove like that.

So I think there's no way to apply inertia
to its very real life.

That's right. That good, good job,
good job.

All right.

You mentioned Boy Scouts, man.
Tell me about that.

Did you go all the way through Eagle?

So interesting story.

So I was in Boy Scouts from very early on.

My dad was a scout leader, very,
very involved.

And you know, looking back,
you know, it's funny

how you don't appreciate some things
when you're a child.

And then you look back
and especially now being a parent, I might

I look back at that commitment of time

and stuff and I appreciate it
a whole different level than I used to.

And so I guess the short answer to
your question is I was a service project

short of getting my Eagle Scout,
so I'm not actually an Eagle Scout.

I was at the one yard line and didn't
put it in the end zone, I guess. Wow.

Yeah.

And you know, we could go down a rabbit
hole on why

I think that was and stuff,
but that was a big activity for us.

And, you know, I just
I got interested in different activities

and I don't know if it's like that today,
but you know, there was sort of some

like social pressure
associated with being or stigma.

So sort of being a Boy Scout

when you're a kid,
I think maybe especially in a smaller town

where there's not as big of a group
that's kind of doing their thing,

but that was something that, you know,

you'd maybe get made fun of and stuff
being a Boy Scout.

And it's interesting.

I think looking back,
there was so much value

and things that I learned from that, that

I don't think kids get enough of today.

You know, some of the fundamentals about
honesty and integrity and helping others

and learning things and working hard,
and there's just needs to be more of that.

Well, I quit after my wee
below year in elementary school.

I didn't I didn't go into Boy Scouts,
but people that I know that have been

involved all the way through,

and I've talked about this on the podcast
several times for we've got 2 or 3

Eagle Scouts
that are on the team here today.

And, we've had a couple
of others over the years,

and it teaches you so much.

And one of the things that I think
it teaches

you is a little bit of independence.

And having to just figure things out
for yourself, it does.

And I think that is so, so important.

I think that kids today
really need more of that.

My own kids for that matter.
Yeah, need more of that.

The merit based system,
I think is really cool too.

If you think about it,
so much of the whole program is set around

that you can earn these recognition
and you earn these merit badges.

You have to do the work.

It's not even it's not given.
You have to earn it.

And there's a lot of opportunity
to earn those things right.

And there's getting that little badge
helps feed

that that desire to achieve,
I think. Right.

And then, you know, the opportunity
to, you know, for instance, be a leader.

That's a big,
big part of the program, right?

Is that like, how can people emerge
to be leaders of their peers, set example,

have tough conversations, do hard work,

those kinds of things that you know, it's
just a great practice ground, I think.

And, you know, you're talking about
you had a couple of Eagle Scouts.

I mean, I think if I saw Eagle
Scout on a resume that put

somebody at the top of the pile,
or at least a short list to be considered.

I've said this before,
but if I see an Eagle Scout on a resume,

I will at least give them the interview.

Yeah, and they may not get the job, but
I will at least give them the interview

because it just it speaks volumes about
character and work ethic and whatnot.

I agree, I agree.

I mean,
you said some of the second ago that

I was actually thinking
about just in the last week or two,

you talked about like as a kid,
you kind of took for granted

the commitment that your parents had made
and the effort that went into that.

Man, when I was really young, our family,

we went through some really hard
financial times,

and at one point my dad was working
two jobs.

He would go to work in the day.
He'd come home for a little bit.

He'd go work at night
and then rinse and repeat.

At that point in life,

I was so young that I don't think
I really even fully understood it.

But man, in high school

I can remember we lived in Minnesota
for a few years and there was a period

where my parents had got me into this
ice hockey skating program.

It was at like 530 in the morning
and six in the morning, like that.

And it was a good 20,
30 minutes away from the house.

Oh, well.

And so not only was there
a financial cost,

but I mean, my dad was getting up
extra early.

My mom was getting up extra early,
driving us all the way there, driving us

all the way back
and then going to work and back.

Then I just kind of thought,

well, that's just mom, dad, that's
just what you do, right?

Things are.

I mean, I'm spending hours and hours
driving my kids

all over the place and I'm like, oh,
that was a really big sacrifice.

Yeah.

And if I didn't realize it at the time,
if you're like me, right,

just like you said,
you just you kind of take it for granted.

But now being on the other side of it,
the little things like driving around

to practices and stuff or just being
available to drive to practice, right?

Or, you know, my mom,
I remember she would work and cook dinner

every single night, you know, and,
and I think about now, you know, whining

about cooking dinner a couple of different
nights a week or cleaning up.

And it's just it was, man, it's so easy to
not appreciate that stuff in the moment.

Without a doubt.

All right.

So I grew up in, Farmersville. Yep.

And went off to school at UNT in Denton.

Correct. You're an entrepreneurship major?

I was, so after I graduated,
I wasn't quite after graduating

from high school, I wasn't too sure
exactly what I wanted to do.

Yeah.

And so I started with a semester,
I think maybe once a year I call on county

community college for a year
and then ended up transferred into UNT,

and, I was undecided major to start with.

And I guess at the point
where I kind of had to decide on a major,

I was trying to think through that and
figure out, you know, what I wanted to do.

The entrepreneurship as a major
was kind of a newer concept at the time.

There's a lot of, colleges
I think that have that now,

but that was a little bit
of a newer concept back then, I think.

And I think growing up in Farmersville,
there was a, you know, a couple

of families there, one in particular
that was pretty entrepreneurial.

They owned a grocery store,
they owned apartments, had several

different businesses.

You know, we mentioned Boy Scouts.

I remember every year

he would pay for several kids
that didn't have the funds go summer camp.

He would pay for people.

And it's always sponsoring something

just very generous
and involved in the community.

And that that kind of stood out to me.

My dad was also a business owner,
but I wouldn't really

consider it an entrepreneur.

He was really
he owned a business, kind of owned a job.

And so I looked at,

you know, this other guy
that lives in our town

and I don't know
what made me think about it.

And maybe I'd gone home
for the weekend or something,

and it was kind of fresh in my memory.

But I remember pulling up to class

in the parking lot and thinking,
I got to declare a major here.

And that was on my mind.

And as I was kind of looked at options
like, you know what I want,

I'm gonna go down that path,
and that's what I'm going to major in.

So it's kind of like

where I made that decision
to sort of moving in that direction.

And I think I did not know
what I was getting into at the time.

Right.

What was the curriculum
like for entrepreneurship?

Like, I imagine you probably had to take

like the general management,
the finance and accounting.

But like outside of that, like what were
the major specific classes that you took?

Yeah, I mean, not to knock it.

I mean, I think the program generally
was pretty good.

And yet it's a good school.

I think it gets overlooked,
especially, you know, here in Texas,

pretty big college.

You know, it was a very sort of broad
curriculum, you know.

So you had business policy.

You had, you know,
some legal classes in there.

You had stuff
that I still don't understand

why it's such a big part
of the curriculum,

like business statistics
and some calculus.

And, you know,
so it was a pretty broad swath of classes.

But, you know,
if I think about being an entrepreneur now

and looking back, going,
if I were to design the curriculum,

what would I do differently?

And one of the things
that stands out to me a lot is the lack of

like a pure, like, sales focused class.

Right?

And I think there was some things

to do around communication and management
that were probably in there.

But if I think about a lot of the skill
sets that I really rely on a lot now,

it's not business calculus.

It's not statistics necessarily right.

To be good at that,

you have to do it regular
and you have to like, use it often, right.

For it to be really familiar and useful.

But I use communication constantly.

I use sales constantly, not just in,
you know, working with new customers,

but anybody. Right?

Employees, contractors, partners.

You have to lean on that.

And yeah, I didn't really learn
the fundamentals of like sales

and the sales process
until I got out of college and got,

you know, an internship and a mentor
and learned it that way.

So I think, you know, it was,
I guess, the one class that I do remember

that was really useful that I look back on

and I really enjoyed a lot, was
they had an entrepreneurship class.

I think that's what it was called.

And I lucked out.

I had a the teacher that I had
that semester was a retired

executive from,
I think it was Lucent Technologies.

That was like
a pretty big company at the time.

And he retired and he
he wanted to teach entrepreneurship,

and he and he made a commitment.

He was going to teach it
only two semesters.

And so he was one of those kind of people
that you just learned

so much about life from, like hearing him
talk about

he had just a really unusual approach
to teaching, but the class was pretty cool

in that they put you into groups
based on your different degree plans.

So you have a marketing person
and finance person.

You have HR, you know, so you
they would sort of group you together

with groups that there was different
focuses on the team.

And then your big class project

for the semester was
that you had to pick a business concept,

and then you had to do all the research
and, you know, create a business plan.

And the biggest part of your grade,

a huge part of your grade

was at the end of the semester,
you presented to a panel of investors

that were friends of his that he pulled
together to judge your plan.

Right.

And, funny sidebar
I remember as part of them giving

that assignment
was very getting a semester

that you're going to have to do
a lot of research for this.

And, you know, it's a pretty good new tool
that you may want to check out.

Everybody write this down.

Google scholar.

And I remember
writing Google on my notepad.

Me like Google.
That's such a weird name, right?

And so I mean, gosh, the tools we have at
our fingertips now is way different.

But that was sort of a fresh new thing.

But that was an awesome experience

because it really did
simulate having a think through

what is a good business to try to focus on
what's plan, working with other people.

Even the conflict among the team,
you know, throughout the semester,

trying to put that stuff together

and then that big presentation
at the end and sort of being judged.

And your grade being based on
was a worthy opportunity to invest in.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Outside of class,
what was college like for you?

Were you in a fraternity?

Were you involved? Did you work both.

So I worked
and I was in a fraternity as well.

And yeah, that was a good experience
for me too, and lots of different ways

since I transferred
in Pledge of Fraternity,

you know, being a little bit older

than some of the other guys
that did at the same time.

And so

but yeah, I was in the attorney
I was involved with,

you know, there's
a Interfraternity Council

that's like kind of a collection
fraternities.

There was a another fraternity at UNT that
they had that was that was called wings.

But it was really more of a fun thing.

It was a few guys from each of
the fraternities that were involved there.

I worked,

I waited tables, I worked at Chili's
and bartended on the weekends and stuff.

That was the main job that I had
during college until my last year or so,

you know, and I think the fraternities
interesting thing too, you know,

it gets set a lot, but it's really true,
is that it's truly one of those

kind of things where you can get out of it
what you put into it.

And if all you're looking to do is

have a social

life and party and have fun,
you can certainly do that.

In some ways, it's

similar to what we were talking about
earlier with Boy Scouts, in that

if you really want to learn something
or develop leadership skills

and take something on,
I think, you know, it's a great playground

to do that kind of stuff, too.

I was the president of charity
when I was there, and,

you know, I got a lot of experience
from that, right?

Trying to get people to align
and do something

where they don't have any kind
of financial incentive to do that.

Right.

Dealing with a lot of different
personalities, managing finances,

planning.

You know, rush was basically sales
process, prospecting,

identifying leads and closing
deals. Right?

So, I mean, there's a lot of parallels
there that I think that I look back

and I was able to pick up a lot of things
there.

The relationships, you know,
which I think is a huge basis

of the business world,
especially entrepreneurs being able to,

you know, identify relationships, invest
in relationships, build relationships,

learn how to give as well as take.

And my first job out of college came from

getting to know a couple of the guys
that were alumni from the fraternity.

So we had a little bit of a story
so that we were in the process

of building a new house on campus,
because we didn't have one at the time,

and there was a couple of guys
that were alumni from the fraternity.

There were,
I don't know, 8 or 10 years older than me.

And while I was the president of Charity,
one on called me up.

His name is Dave.

And he, he said,
you know, Jeff, me and John are starting

this software company and we're looking
for someone to intern and help with sales.

Do you know anybody? Be interested?

And I said, yes, I'm interested.

And so they had our office
over in Addison.

So I drove over and sat down with them
and met with them.

And and I think I'm glad I made this move
because my thought process

there was I'm interested
in owning a business.

I'm interested
in that sort of entrepreneurship path.

And I need to know sales.

And so that was a story
I told him, is that

this is what I eventually want to do
is start my own business.

But I know that I probably need to be good
at sales to do that.

That's why this is interesting.

So real quick,
the fact that you had that self-awareness,

that this was a gap
that you needed to fill, that's huge,

because I think a lot of people,
especially at that age,

don't have that kind of self-awareness.

I know I did not have that level
of self-awareness, and it's awesome

that you did.

What kind of software were you selling?

So it was for the health care
staffing space.

So they they're kind of a niche.

And health care staffing called per diem
nurse staffing.

It's basically agencies that staff nurses
on a shift by shift basis at hospitals.

And what was interesting about what was
going on in software at that time is that

there was a shift from sort of like what
you call it then client software,

where installing stuff and running it
locally and to web based or SaaS software.

And Salesforce was just hitting the scene
there, you know, and so what

they were trying to do is they wanted
to build a software application

for nurse staffing agencies,
but it was going to be a SAS model

instead of this client server
type of approach.

And, you know, it was a really good move.

It was a small enough niche that
the big guys weren't going after it yet.

It was big enough
to build a decent sized business.

And there were some incumbents there
that were very comfortable,

that were ripe for being disrupted.

And so when I started working for them,
I say sales, I was

I started off basically a cold caller

about 100 calls a day, just trying
to set appointments and set up demos

and it was good for me because, you know,
I had to learn a lot of the basics

about sales, right?

So we, you know, my mentor there, Dave,
taught me a lot about sales funnel and

using the CRM and working a sales process
and being disciplined

about making sure you're qualifying
and all those kind of basics.

Right.

But it was just him
and his business partner at the time.

He was focusing on sales.

His partners
focus on building the product.

And so I kind of set at the cross
section there

I was on the phone with these prospects.

They're telling me, hey, I'd be interested
in this, but, you know, does it do this?

If it doesn't, then
I probably wouldn't be interested now.

But if I did, I'd be interested. Right.

So I go run down the hallway to John, go,
hey, they said if our software to this,

they would probably buy it. Right?

And so that's something that looking back,
turned out to be really valuable

for me and my, my current business
that I have now, because

learning the customer need up front,
understanding what has value

and then talking to the development
or the product team

and figuring out
how do we bring our product

into alignment to meet that need
that started at that job way back then.

And so, yeah, I think that I don't know
if you want to go kind of in

depth on that stage of things,
but like that was my first job in college.

I would drive,

I think, Monday, Wednesday
and Fridays over to Addison and

make 100 cold calls a day
and then drive back to Denton,

and then all my classes run on like
Tuesday and Thursday and Wednesday nights.

And I was president
fraternity at the time.

So that was that period of time.

That was referred to earlier
as lazy person

to ask a busy person, yeah,
but super get learning experience

and getting that opportunity came from,
you know, being in the fraternity and

stepping up right.

If I wouldn't had taken the initiative
to try to lead and be the president,

I probably wouldn't have gotten that phone
call.

But, you know, so, yeah,

I think one of the lessons
that I look back on

is that you got to give yourself
as many shots on goal

as possible, and a lot of times
that's by saying yes

and taking responsibility
and owning stuff.

Yeah for sure man.

You use that term

a second ago that I haven't
heard in forever about that thin client.

Oh yeah. Right.

Like that is a that is a good story right.

Gone by me. Yeah. Yeah.

What was good about that.

And so part of the reason
why we were so competitive

is those guys were still distributing
their software on CDs.

And here we come.

First of all, we're having to explain
to our clients

that their database
isn't posted on the internet. Right.

That's not what it means
to have web based software, right.

But as we started making improvements,
we were just pushing stuff

like you could make updates very rapidly

and there was no way it was possible

that they would be able to keep up with us
once we got that speed right.

And that was a big part of the sauce back
then, was being able to move really fast.

On improving the product. Man,

you're taking me way back.

Earlier in my career
this was mid to late 2000.

This company I worked for, we sold,
accounting software for construction

industry, and I remember it was right,
right at the end of the year.

In fact, it was somewhere
between Christmas and New Year's.

And the publisher of the software
had shipped out an update

to update payroll tables
and something for tax

calculations
or for producing nines or whatever.

The in the year to nine and ten,
nine nines, I'm forgetting.

Anyway.

And there was a problem with it.

It was calculating things incorrectly.

And so, you know, we had hundreds
if not thousands of customers

that have this
and you got to ship a new CD

to get this thing,
you know, updated again.

And what seems medieval now, right, right.

You think that. Yeah,
we've come a long way.

All right.

So in a time period wise
this is like early 2000.

Yeah.

This is yeah early 2000
right around 2002 or so.

Okay.

I mean making 100 cold calls a day
that'll toughen you up really quick.

Well.

Well you get told.

No a lot hung up on insulted a lot.

Thankfully I've had to do very little cold
calling in my career.

And I hated every second of it.

Yeah, it's not fun. Now,
I'll tell you this.

One of the things this is definitely going
to bring you back to the past, dude.

So one of our killer techniques back
then was the fax blast.

So you could queue up like a one pager
little brochure

and hit your fax list all at one.

I remember
that was a big day around the office.

Like, hey, we're going to do a fax blast
today. Oh, wow.

So do the fax blast.

And the phone started ringing

because thousands of them
go out all at once or something like that.

Right. And that was a great

it was a it's a great source
for us for a really long time.

You'd be surprised.

That's way before MailChimp
and oh yeah, yeah, before MailChimp.

And yeah, there was
I mean, email was definitely

being used widely and stuff at that point,
but I don't know if it's because I think

probably, you know, we're talking about
I think part of it was the uniqueness

of our target customer
and how they operated.

They were very heavily
reliant on fax machine

to operate their business
because they got needs from their clients,

like the hospital sending in,
like what they need covered by fax.

They weren't really using email yet
for that part. Wow.

So now that I'm talking through this,
I wonder if a big part of why

that happened to be pretty effective
for us was because fax in particular

to them, like when that fax machine lit
up, that meant opportunity for them.

So you talk about an open rate
was probably really, really high on that.

Right? Well, at some point
everybody's going to see it. Right.

Even if they throw it away. Yeah.

They don't just get to like Mark unread
and move on to the next one.

But there's a physical piece of paper
there, right?

You still got some mean responses.

I remember one where
somebody sent a page back that was like a

fully like blacked out page
just to eat up all of our toner.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you did that for a few years. If.

What was your next role? Yeah.

So when I first started there, it's
more of an intern role

as employee
number one and continued in sales.

So after I graduated college,
I took a full time job there.

And it worked out really good for me
because what was nice about it

is if you think about, like ramping up
and building like a pipeline,

I was interning,
building a sales funnel on a pipeline,

and then when I graduated from college
and went officially full time,

I had a terrific sales
pipeline already, like built up.

And so I was able to
and they put together a really good

comp plan, like a commission
plan and stuff for me there.

And so I was there for five years
after college

in a sales role mainly,
and and it worked out really good.

So I was able to make pretty good money,

like right out of the gate
coming out of school.

And those guys,
they were terrific to work with.

I look back,
they're really close friends of mine.

Even today.

I learned a lot from both of them,
and I appreciate both of them very much.

And, you know, like I said,
we remain really good friends.

But, you know, I just
I learned a whole lot from them.

And so five years into it,
we start having the conversation about,

hey, you've talked about wanting
to start your own business.

Is that still something you're
wanting to do? That kind of thing.

So we start having these conversations
and ultimately those guys partnered

with me and put up most of the money
for me to go start my first business.

Wow. Yeah.

So which wasn't a technology company.

So I did a little bit of a detour
after that.

You say we were building software
for the healthcare staffing space,

and there was kind of a new niche
or a niche kind of emerging there

that seemed to be getting
a lot of attention, where it's more like

they call it travel nurse staffing,
where it's longer term contracts.

So we start talking about, well,

what if you started a business
that actually did that, right?

So we'll go start a staffing company.

You were doing placements
yourself, correct?

Yeah.

So I was going to kind of jump the fence
and do what like a lot of our clients did.

Right.

And so using the same software that yeah,

they were going

to let me use the software, you know, like
and we were starting to think about

building some stuff that was a little bit
more targeted to helping that space too.

And so, so you know,
they put up a lot of the funding.

And then I was the really
the operator. Right.

They weren't really like involved day

to day with the business
or anything like that.

But in terms of kind of partner with me
and setting me up to go do that,

I think there's a lot of lessons

from that experience
that we can probably get into.

It was a good experience overall.

I did that for five years.

We kind of talked about like kind of what
that journey look like.

But I think looking back,
one of the biggest lessons

I learned early on,
and that was probably, gosh, sky's

probably only 24, 25
when I started that business.

And at that time, I still don't think
that I even be up close in a startup.

I didn't probably truly understand
what it is to be

an entrepreneur or a small business owner
and what that took,

and I think I probably took
for granted a little bit,

that just because you start something
or you think you're really smart

like that doesn't really matter.

I mean, it helps, but there's much more
to making that successful.

And I think that being overconfident,
maybe even semi-retired, arrogant

about what I thought my capabilities
were compared to everybody else

was something
that got me in trouble there.

What kind of trouble?

Trouble in that?

Like a I kind of assumed
it was all going to be a lot easier

then it turned out to be working
with those clients all the time.

I think in all transparency,
I looked at it,

I thought, hey, if these guys can do this
and look how successful they are at,

I should be able to do this
really well, right?

And that's really naive.

And it's the arrogance of youth, I think,
to think that there's no easy business.

I've learned the hard way.

All businesses are hard in their own way.

Some kind of have better payoff
for your effort, time and risk, I think.

But so many times the grass looks greener.

Oh, that guy's got
the he's got the right idea

for that business kind of thing. Right.

So I think I underestimated that.

And there was a lot of skills
that I look back on now

that I think I've built over the years
that I didn't really have done.

I think I've gotten better
at focusing on the important things

and being able to filter out stuff
that isn't aligned with the goals, right?

The importance of team building.

I think I look back at that business,

and I was probably too concerned
with being a people pleaser

instead of making the hard decisions
and having really hard conversations.

So things like keeping team members around
that just probably weren't

a good fit for what we needed,

instead of just making the decision
and making a change.

I think being a lot more comfortable
with just change in general.

I stayed to set and patterns.

Instead of recognizing this isn't working,
I need to take action right now.

Have gotten better at that.

I'm definitely not a master of that. It's
something I have to work a lot at.

But looking back,
there was a couple big things I would do.

Different is
I would need to take on those tough

decisions, put more scrutiny on
is this really working?

Is this really getting us where we want?

And then just being brutally honest myself
of it's not now I got to make a change.

What do I need to do
then? Go execute on that.

And I too am a people pleaser and I too
have delayed making hard decisions.

And man, it is hard to be a people pleaser
and an entrepreneur.

It is.

You're always going to make somebody upset
and that's a people pleaser.

I don't want anybody to be upset.

Right? Yeah, yeah,
that's always been a challenge for me.

I think the biggest step for me
was becoming aware of it.

If I look back at the 25 year
old version of me,

I was that, but I wasn't aware of it.

And so just getting I think

the biggest part of the battle
so many times is becoming aware of that.

And, you know, there was a lot to go on.

Too much of a tangent, but like one of
the things that was a kind of a cool tool

that helped me find some awareness
similar to that in a different area was,

and if you ever heard of the Colby Index,
so I think when I first

I had some friends that were in this
program, strategic coach, and they,

they were talking about their Colby
and they sent it to me and I took it

and I was I had created this identity
for myself that I'm an entrepreneur.

Right.

And I sort of give you these ratings
in different categories.

And one of them is like quick start.

You know, it's
like one of the labels on it.

And I was like, oh, I'm an entrepreneur.

I know
I'm going to be a quick start. Right?

And it comes back.

And I was like kind of middle of the road
like in Quick Start.

And I was really high, like a nine out of
ten in what they call a fact finder.

Right.

And I remember like looking
at those results and thinking like,

almost like I was disappointed, like,
oh, maybe I'm not really an entrepreneur.

And some of that's
just not understanding the tool very well.

And as I understood it, like what
I did start to become really aware of

is some natural tendencies around
how fact finder and how quick start.

And these things show up
in the way that I respond to doing things.

And for me, when I got those results

and learn more about it more in depth,
it made a lot of sense to me.

A lot of things.

I could look back and I could see
a lot of pieces fit a lot better,

because I do tend
to have an analytical approach to things,

and my way of initiating work
is to gather information and understand.

And and so I think it doesn't
it's not a good thing or a bad thing,

but understanding
it made me more self-aware is like,

hey, I'm prone to analysis paralysis
or getting stuck or trying to pursue

too much information instead of
maybe getting into motion quicker.

But by having that awareness,
I can figure out what's the right balance.

How can I get enough information
but know about myself?

I can't get stuck there.

I got to move.

So I think awareness is a big part
of the battle, without a doubt.

Real quick.

Were you married at this point

when you started that business,
or did that come later in your career?

Now, I was early
and being married as well.

Let me think so I think so.

I was dating my now wife,
so we were together,

but we had not gotten married.

And then we got married

while that business was going,
let's get get it off the ground.

Yeah.

What was that conversation like with her
of, hey, I'm going to make this jump.

Was she all on board?

Was she uneasy?

She was amazingly encouraging
and confident about it.

I think some of that came from me
because I was very confident about it

going into it.

And I think one of the things
that's been terrific about my wife is

I think she has a
she has a high confidence in me,

which can kind of be a double edged sword.

There's a high standard, an expectation,
I think that comes with that.

But I think that ever since
we've been together,

she's had a high degree of confidence
in my capabilities.

And, you know, sometimes I think that that

has caused some friction
because she can see sometimes if I'm not

realizing the full potential
of my capabilities,

then that conversation right where

I may be having to face something
that's true about that observation,

maybe I'm resistant to that, but yeah,
she was really supportive about that.

I remember her throwing
a celebration dinner and going out.

Friends of Jeff
starting his first business

and being really encouraging about it.

I think she was maybe a little bit

with me, more confident about how fast
everything would happen at that point.

Right?

So you're doing this right
as you're getting married,

did your in-laws, like, tap
you on the shoulder and be like, hey,

you sure you're about to take our daughter

and you're jumping off the cliff with we,
you know, with all this risk?

Yeah.

Was there any of that or was it just like,
no, this is great.

Go do it.

There was not maybe initially.

I mean,
I think people look at the glamorous side

of entrepreneurship and most of the time

they focus on all the success,
like stories or the like,

looking at people after they've achieved
a certain level of success.

And, you know, for me,

it was a really slow path,
like the entrepreneurship journey.

I probably should have tried

something different at a couple
of different times over the years.

I probably stuck with stuff longer,
like take for instance,

the business we were just talking about.

That business was modestly successful

right before kind of the oh eight
financial meltdown stuff happened.

And then I had to really kind of decide,
do I really want to stick with this

and push through it
or maybe do something else?

And, you know,
after several years of banging

on that thing and it not really turning
into something where

I was really getting to the income level
that I had the potential love

and that kind of stuff, then, yeah,
it was a tap on shoulder moment.

Even semi intervention,
you know, to sit down and talk about this.

And that was hard.

I mean I was really conflicted about that.

And I have a terrific in-laws.

They're awesome.

My father in law is super smart
like a lot to learn from him

a little bit different philosophy
perhaps on what the path should look like.

Right.

It's a little bit more corporate,
a little more security focused around,

like go get a sales job or something
like that in a big organization.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

I just, I didn't feel like that
was the right path for me at the time.

And I think that was kind of tough
to navigate.

Right?

Because, I mean, I could look at it
as a father, too and be like, hey,

you did your entrepreneurship thing,
now you need to go

get safe, secure job
and go down that path.

And, you know,
you could argue that both is right.

But I think that in hindsight,
I'm glad that I stayed with it and,

you know, took the tough lessons and tried
to learn from it and keep applying it.

Yeah.

You know, obviously that's not
the business that you're in today.

Yeah.

What ended up becoming of that business,
did you sell it.

Did you just wind it down.

Yeah.

So let's say so
I mentioned that the financial crisis

kind of happened around the time
that I got out of that business.

And so we were growing.

We're actually doing okay
at that point. Right.

It was turning into a pretty decent
small business.

But then when that happened, I started
looking at numbers and everything.

And I remember the day.

So we our company,
we had about 1500 to 1800 open

contract opportunities
at any given time on average.

And around that time when all that stuff
started to happen, I remember seeing that

that number drop to like 30.

Oh, wow. Yeah.

And I remember
looking at that day to that day

and seeing how drastically
that demand had fallen off a cliff

and looking at the contracts
that we already had in place,

where we could have some forecast revenue
and everything.

And, you know, I had two partners
that had put up a majority of the funds

and we hadn't really done distributions
or anything at that point.

We just kind of kept it on the business.

And I remember looking at the math,

I mean, okay,
I don't really love this business.

The space, it's not something that I feel
like I'm real passionate about.

I really wanted to get back into
to software.

Do I really want to commit
to weathering this period

and then trying to rebuild this?

Or is this time where I need to make
a decision to do something different

and when I looked at that sheet
where the jobs had fallen off,

I did the quick math on.

I was like, okay, I know right now
that if I start winding things down,

I can make sure all my investors
get every penny back.

I get all my money back,

we get a little bit of return on that
and we move on to fight another day.

Right.

And so it was hard, but I just
I decided to do that.

Right.

I decide I'm going to start one
and sing down about that same time

I had a relationship.

This guy that I knew reached out to me
and he was in the in the industry.

I think he may have even been
a client of mine.

Then I'd signed the software company,
and he was working with a firm

to do a roll up
where they were acquiring companies,

and we had this certification
that we invest a lot in getting.

At the time, that was pretty valuable.

It was a little bit,
a little bit difficult to get.

And he was going to piece together
2 or 3 different companies, and

he had a backer that was going to fund it
and they were going to combine them.

So we actually got the business
under contract to sell.

So I was thinking about winding it down
and then came in an opportunity

to actually sell the business.

That's a very generous use of the word.

So we're going to sell it.

And we went through all the due

diligence and everything got down
to like within a day or two of the deal's

supposed closing and another business
that was one of them

that they were going to be
combining together got flagged

for some kind of Medicare
like billing stuff or something.

And so that pulled the plug on that.

And it kind of torpedoed the whole deal
at the very last second.

So we ended up
not really even selling that business,

just writing it
until we kind of winded it down.

And that actually, funny enough, kind of
led into the next like phase for me.

I was subletting the office
and I forget where I post it,

but maybe Craigslist or something
like that to sublet the office space.

And the guy reached out to me
and, wanted to come look at the space.

And we met. And they were.

This was around the time
that the Apple App Store was kind of new.

And, you know, mobile
apps was kind of like a big new thing.

And these guys came to look at the office
and they had a business

that built custom mobile apps and,
you know, talked to them.

They were growing like crazy.

And so we got to just talking about like,
well, why are you subletting the office?

What do you guys do?

And just kind of had a long
conversation and turned into,

maybe we should look at you

joining us and,
you know, becoming a partner or something.

Right.
And so we had a bunch of conversation.

So I ended up like deciding to join them.

And got a stake in the business
and came on to kind of focus

more on like, operations
and that kind of thing.

And that's where I really got
the crash course and custom development.

I mean, that was a wild time.

Looking back at, I think when

that the time I joined, though,
I think we probably had 100 different

fixed fee software projects
going simultaneously

with barely any systems
or leadership in place.

It was wild.

It was a really interesting time.

Yeah.

And real quick, I mean, you've been
in the technology space

for the overwhelming
majority of your career.

You're not a developer yourself, are you?

I'm not.

You know,
I'm really more from the sell side, right?

I think I probably relate
more to the product side of it

within like product development.

Like I'm not an engineer.

I don't write code.

I have become pretty technical
over the years though.

So I think I've had several people,
you know, that first was like, you know,

you say you're not technical, Jeff,
but you're really technical.

I'm technical in the sense of understand
the technology and understand

and kind of the fundamentals

of different pieces of it,
how it works and how to build products.

But if you sat me down at a computer
and I had to write code, I'd be useless.

Yeah. So

how did you piece together all the like?

You said that systems were not there.

Was that a big part of your job
was getting systems in place?

It was. I mean, that period there.

That's a great example of what it looks
like when you completely redline

the engine on growth,
like just out of control, right?

I mean, it was miserable to be honest,
for a while because like 8000 hour weeks.

Totally. Yeah.

I mean, at the office
all day long, deep into the night,

lots of fires just every day.

Fires everywhere. Right.

And what happened,
you know, looking back, like

there's just tons of fundamental flaw.

There was no systems and processes.
And you grow so fast.

So you do lots of things wrong.

And then they all compound
on top of each other.

So for example, no great processes

for scoping and understanding the effort
for something.

Right.

And so you're you're
estimations are flawed.

And then you do a fixed fee
contract on it.

And then you go sign as many of those
as what happened then.

And they all stack up.

And then you don't have delivery structure
and leadership and processes in place.

So you have delivery problems.

And so it just

it was like almost every area of
the business was on fire at the same time.

And so it was just sort of a slow,
painful process of navigating it

and working on one bed at a time
throughout the day.

Man, what kind of systems like what
were the things that you actually plugged

in to? Kind of right. The ship?

I mean, it wasn't just me, right?

So it was definitely a team effort
to try to work through it.

But I think looking back, like a lot of it
started with the numbers,

like getting clear on numbers like
our tracking, like where's effort going?

What are we actually spending
like our time on by project,

getting our finances right,
because we were growing so fast

that we were trying to raise some funding
to help, like kind of fuel that.

But when you don't have good books,
you can't talk

to anybody about putting money
in, you know, and you can't,

you know,
at that time we were looking at all

kinds of different options
for how to satisfy that.

But when you don't have finances
that are books are.

When I first got there,
the finances were in Excel sheets.

Oh, wow.

It wasn't
even in like QuickBooks or anything.

So getting QuickBooks

implemented and getting a time
tracking system implemented and actually

putting logging effort towards things
so you can see where it's at.

I spent a lot of time front line with just
customers that were upset, right?

Trying to figure out
like where things at and

what was committed
and how do we make it right.

And, you know,
I think even a lot of those customers

that I dealt with, right
when I kind of got involved,

you know, that
maybe it wasn't a bad situation I built.

What I'm proud of is
I feel like for the most part,

most of them felt like
even if it's a bad situation

and maybe they didn't
like what was happening,

then they felt like I dealt with them
in a respectable way.

Right.

And I think that that's
another big lesson for me is that

especially in custom software,
because it's it's kind of rife with

potential budget overruns and timelines
and just unexpected issues

and that kind of thing.

And some of my best customer
relationships are with clients

that the projects

or the initial engagements didn't
go very smooth, like there was a problem,

but how I responded to it
and made it right, even at my detriment

a lot of times,
like forged these relationships

that there's trust where they
they know what to expect from me.

Yeah, look, nobody's perfect.

And I think it's not a matter of if,
but when you screw something up

for a customer. Right.

And man, it's all about how you handle it.

It is.

And you can completely turn things around
by the way that you handle it

and come out the other side
with a better relationship.

Yeah.

After you screw up,
if you handle it right.

Exactly, exactly.

And you know, that doesn't mean

just talking
nice to people or listening to them.

I mean, sometimes
you have to put skin in the game.

You know, I can remember
this was probably the third ish

year of the business,
one of my early team members.

I could hear them in the other room
on the phone, and I couldn't tell

what was going on, but it sounded like
the conversation was kind of heated.

Yeah, and when he got done with that call,
I wouldn't talk to him like,

hey man, what's going on?

He's like, well, they're upset about this
and this and this and this.

I called the CEO of that company

and I said, hey, forget the money,
forget everything.

What do we need
to do to turn things around?

How can we make this right? Right.

His demeanor completely changed.

He was floored that it was the,
you know, starting with forget the money.

And it was straight into
how do we get things back on track.

He's actually become a friend.

We get together here and there for drinks
and he's gone on

to to do something else now.

And you know, we've kept up through that.

And so it's amazing
what happens when you do the right thing

and you handle those situations
well. Yeah.

You got to play the long game
like relationships can't be short game.

And you know, sometimes that means
you take it on the chin in the short term.

But you play the long game.

And I think one of the principles
that I really try to keep in mind is just

how would I want to be treated
if the roles were reversed,

like treat other people
the way that you want to be treated,

and you'd be amazed how simple and basic
of a concept that sounds.

But you know, when you do that, like that,
I think that's a big difference

maker, especially in a relationship
type of business, without a doubt.

And we operate exactly like that.

We talk about that all all the time.

We talk about the Golden Rule. Yeah.

Well what was the jumping off
point for you to leave there

and go into
what would become anyway? Yeah.

So I was with that company
for about five years and

you know, I can't exactly remember
what was the catalyst.

I think I just want to move on.

I think I've just been there five years,
and it was just

just getting the feeling
that it's time to do something different.

I was a minority partner, so I didn't
really have control over the business,

and there wasn't a big enough stake
where I kind of felt

like it was going to continue
to be a good use of my time.

There was another one of those
that I look back,

and I think the learning that I took from
it was extremely valuable.

So I wouldn't say that, you know,
I wouldn't do that again necessarily, but

but definitely the financial payoff
that I was expecting during

that period of time
wasn't what I had hoped it would be.

Right.

So if I have to take it
in the form of learning, I'll take it.

And that's what I did.

At that point, I just knew,
I want to do something different.

This isn't really what I think
I'm I'm being led to do.

So I set a time frame and,
you know, for being out of that business

and negotiated, you know, selling
the stake that I had in it back to them.

And I wasn't quite sure
what I was going to do.

I think there was a big part of me
that was thinking, maybe I will go back to

more of a sales role, go to a software
company and focus on sales.

I knew that I could do that really well,
and that could be

a pretty good,
like path for a lot of different reasons.

But I had a lot of previous clients
and partners and people kind of paying me

like, hey, like you're going to go
start your own shop, right?

And so I started kind of thinking
about that path

and like, okay, what would this look like
if I started on my own?

And, and around
that time I had reconnected

with a contact of mine
that I'd met years before.

We happened to sit next to each other
at a event

that a mutual friend had hosted,
and we got to talking about,

like what I was up to
and kind of search for the next thing.

And he was kind of
in the space with a business that was more

focused on it outsourcing,
dedicated teams, that kind of stuff. And

so we start having conversations
about like, you know,

what would it look like if we partnered up
and did something together?

And I think coming out of that sort
of like

pure time, that kind of call
like the mobile app Gold rush days.

Right?

One of the big lessons that or the things
that was big on my mind at the time was,

you know, mobile is big, but
in the big scheme of things, it's not big.

And sort of the software

world, it's sort of a line item
as part of a bigger solution.

Right.

So we were very focused on the front end
mobile apps.

Right.

And and this is all B2B, it's not B2C.

That was a mix there.

That was all big mix.

Some of it was B2C, some was B2B.

I mean, it was all industries.

It was all over the place. Right?

But the the common thread was that
it was pretty much all native

mobile applications,
iPhone and iPad apps and Android apps and

so I think as I was trying to think about
what to do next, I knew that

I didn't want to focus just on mobile,
even though that's where I had

a lot of expertise at that point
and opportunities, quite frankly.

But what we started to talk about was,
okay, if we did something together,

how can we be sort of a provider for,

you know, whatever
is the emerging technology, right.

And so then we started thinking about like
is should it be specific?

Everybody's talking about AI.

Should we do something focused on AI
or should it be IoT

or like all these things, you know, around
that time that were kind of starting

to get a lot of buzz
and what we sort of landed on is that

what we wanted to
do was be more of an innovation partner.

That whatever the type of technology
within sort of the digital product

space was,
we were sort of positioned to help clients

with whatever is kind of leading edge
and real quick, just for another kind of

frame of reference.

Timewise,
this is like 2016 ish somewhere in there.

And this was so let's see,
it was about eight years ago.

Yeah. So yeah the 2016 okay. Yeah.

And so we decided to partner up
and start innovate together.

That was eight years ago.

And the goal being that we were going
to be focused on helping clients

with digital product development,
but focused on sort of being an innovation

studio. Right.

What's the story behind the name anyway?

Good question.

So the name was hard around that time

when we decided to start that business,
we were brainstorming names and we were

actually kind of struggling with it a lot,
and we knew that we wanted to help.

Clients were driving innovation

and actually get my
my business partner at the time credit.

Like he called me up and he's like,
hey, well, let me back up.

We've been playing
with all these different names

like fusion five,
I think was something that was in the mix.

There's all these kind of stuff

on the brainstorming board
and we didn't like any of them.

So he called me up and he's like,
you know, I was thinking

this could be like a loose play
on innovate if we call it no.

Eight.

But, you know, the word
no is like actually

like an urban slang
for like wicked awesome or cool.

And the number eight
has a lot of significance in like,

Asian culture and, you know, like,
you know, a lot of the team

work from India and that kind of
sounds like, what about no.

Eight
and it's like, we'll see if that domains.

Oh, that's a four letter domain.
We should go get that right.

So yeah that's
what we ended up going with.

So the official story is it's
sort of a loose play on the word innovate.

Secondarily
you know is means awesome or wicked cool.

Love it.

And so we made a deal and we started
the business together and moved forward.

And we really struggled to execute
on what we had in mind for several years,

like for the first several years
of the business.

Because, you know, when you start out,

you're trying to keep the lights on
and you're trying to feed enough

to hire the people you need
and just basically get to the next step.

And so a lot of what we were doing was,
was taking opportunity that we could get.

And really all we were for the first
several years was kind of a dev shop,

you know,
we were building more mobile apps,

like most of the opportunities were
from relationships that I had or people

that that knew me and kind of knew me
for doing that kind of thing at the time.

And so we started a lot of our early
projects were mobile application projects,

and I remember it was my birthday
several years and starting this business,

and me and my business partner
had lunch together,

and we just kind of had this conversation
about like, man,

we're just not doing what
we said that we wanted to do.

So are we going to like, continue
down this path, or are we going to

try to like, figure out,
like how to get back on track again?

And so that was

that was another one of those like,
you know, like a self-awareness moment.

I got like Dan Sullivan, he's pretty big
in like the entrepreneurial scene.

But he talks a lot about that.

Like all progress begins
with telling the truth.

And I think that's like
just being honest for ourselves as, like,

neither one of us is happy
with the direction we're going right now.

We're not on track.

We're not doing things on alignment
with like, what our vision was.

And on that note, yeah,
what's your partner?

Was your vision aligned

or did he want something different
than what you wanted?

I think that our vision for the business
was aligned.

I think what later turned out
to be a little bit of a challenge for us

is that our vision individually
for what we wanted to do within business,

not that business,
but just business in general,

wasn't like totally aligned,
not good or bad.

It just we were at longer term
going towards different things.

And we kind of learned that over
time. Right.

But as far as what the business was,
I think that we did have that vision.

But what wasn't,

there's
a difference between having a vision

and like really being clear
about that vision.

So I think what we lacked at that time
was that vividness of

what does it actually look like
if we were on track for our vision.

So we had this stated thing of
we want to drive innovation

and we want to help clients
with digital innovation.

These words that don't really like, like,
what does that mean?

It wasn't till we got clear on
what does that mean

until like things really started
to like take off for us.

As you say
that the word digital transformation

was really big,
like five, six, 7 or 8 years ago,

and you still hear it
every once in a while.

And every time I hear it, I just,
I kind of thought

a little bit on the inside like, okay,
what does that actually mean?

Right?

And anyway, I'll get off my soapbox there,
but I'm totally with you.

Yeah.

You've really got to codify
what this thing is.

Yeah.

And you got to start with something,
right?

I think it's just it's.

Or like if you think about, like, the
peeling and onion kind of like analogy.

Right?

You can start with like a general idea.

But I think that another big lesson for me
is that you can start with

this general idea,

but it's really important to scratch it
that until you really get down to like,

okay, what does that actually look
like in practice

and what is it we're actually doing,
and what's the value that generates?

And what are the real clients
that need that.

And just really like grinding on that
until you get that

level of clarity is super important
I think.

Yeah, I'm
just kind of I'm projecting here.

And so tell me if I'm way off.

But thinking
back to the staffing business,

I'm going to say it seems like
that was kind of an opportunistic thing.

It was
it was some of the that you were like

you said yourself,
you weren't passionate about it.

Right?

It seems like the technology
side of things

is something
that you are much more passionate about.

And is it fair to say that
that's what's kind of kept you, like you

said, peeling the onion. Scratching.
What is this? What is this?

Let's let's make it into it is
technology is interesting to me.

Like it's the stuff that I would read
about and be excited about anyway,

I think the intersection
where I kind of fit in at

figuring out how we take that technology
and use it and solve real problems.

And, you know,
one of the one of the phrases we use with

our business is building software
that matters, because a lot of software

and a lot of technology that does
it really make an impact can be question.

And I think figuring out
what those things are that are actually

worthy of sort of pursuing
and then helping our clients

go after that,
I think that's really fun, you know?

And it's always changing,
never more rapidly than today.

Are you a gadget guy?

And you're like, hey, I wear a rig.

I like everything,
but we're sitting here, right?

We'll geek out later.

So you have this moment of like,
yeah, this isn't what we set out to do.

What came after that.

You know,
it was a little bit slower after that.

I think that after

we kind of acknowledged that to each other
that just we're not on track.

This isn't fun
even it was something we talked about.

This just isn't fun.

And was it not fun
because things weren't going

well or because your vision wasn't
being achieved?

That it was more that,
I mean, we were doing okay.

We weren't like killing it
or anything at that point, right?

Yeah, we were doing okay.

But I think it's more of what was good
is that both of us were uncomfortable

with that.

Right?

It'd be pretty easy to go, well,
can we make some money doing this?

Can we muddle along,
you know, down this path?

Maybe.

But I think that what was good

is that both of us were like, well,
this isn't what we envisioned.

This isn't anything special in our mind.

And that's not very exciting
to spend this much effort on.

And so it didn't, you know,

I don't think that it like, clicked
and everything just shifted suddenly.

It took a while to continue to try
to figure out what does that look like.

And I think for us,
a lot of that started to come together,

you know, over the years
we started making steps towards it,

but where it really where I think
it really like broke through for us

was probably early in Covid when we,

you know,
everybody's remote and everything.

And we did a couple of engagements
with clients where

we didn't jump right in
to trying to build a product.

We proposed something
that was a little bit more exploratory,

right where we brought
in a couple of different team

members to help do things
that we really hadn't done before.

I think we tried to be more specific
about this.

So, for instance, one of the concepts
that we talked about a lot around that

time was everybody's talking about design
thinking like, what is design thinking?

We need to do design
thinking for our client.

I had no idea what that even met.

You know,
either one of those terms and with.

Yeah, I didn't even know what that meant.

And, you know,
I even had some clients that we'd

done some work with before and like, hey,
do you guys do this stuff?

And at that point it's funny.

Now, looking back, how clueless
I was about like what that actually meant,

considering it's such an important part
of what we do today for our customers,

and how much of a like, like evangelist
I am for that kind of stuff now,

because so we were talking about
like we needed to design, thinking that

that could be a part
of this innovation process,

but not knowing what the right type
of resources look like for that.

What does that process look like?
How do you sell that to a client?

You know, that kind of stuff?
We hadn't quite figured that out.

And so we did an engagement with a client
and we

we had a couple of resources
that we started working with on our team.

So just build out like a proposal
for them.

On doing this work upfront.

That really is is intended to get clarity.

So sort of the same concept
we're talking about saying

about getting really clear on
what is your vision.

You know,
I mean, it sort of in the real world,

that's sort of what
we've packaged up into this product.

And we ended up,
you know, naming it the Innovation Lab.

And that's a big part
of what it aims to do

is take this general vision
and like, really make it look tangible

because now we know who's it for,
what problem does it solve?

Why do people care about this?

Why is it going to stand out?

How much is it going
to cost to actually build it?

What kind of team do I need?

Like all of those questions
that you don't really know

when you're kind of talking about,
like the concept.

Right.

And so around that time we started doing
a couple of these engagements

and then we started to figure out like,
okay, like now we can,

we can better define like what
types of deliverables do we provide

and what's the right type of client
for this and what do we call it.

And all these things
started to kind of come together

after we did a couple of those.

And then we started working with this
consultant that was mainly for marketing

and lead gen.

That kind of thing is an external
this external. Yeah.

And I'll give you a shout out.
That's okay. Yeah.

A company called Nine Day Pipeline
and we got a lot of value out of it

for what we thought we would get.

But a lot of these exercises
at the very beginning of the process

where we had to sort of dig through,

what kind of customers
have we worked with before?

What are our capabilities
in this different areas?

And you sort of go through this

like scoring system
that's they had this really cool matrix.

And what was really neat about
it was after doing that, it

got a lot more clear to us on
who really is our target ideal client.

What is it
that we really like provide as a value,

and what is sort of a
a differentiator for us?

And our space is pretty crowded.

There's a lot of lookalikes
and it's hard to kind of stand out.

And I think
when we went through that process,

when we really did the hard work
to get super clear on who do we really do

the best job at helping,
where's our value prop most compelling?

And we started to focus on that and forget
about the other stuff that also had,

man, the conversations and things
that we start having clients changed.

And then once we put a product
name around the service offering

and we knew how to present that to clients
so that they were really problem aware,

like they knew what the problem was
that was out there

that maybe they didn't really understand
before.

It's like the lights went on, you know,
the conversations with prospective clients

changed, and I felt like we really started
to find our way at that point.

So I'm going to kind of paraphrase
when you started doing this kind of work,

there wasn't like a template
that you could just follow.

You had to kind of take a guess
and then just iterate on it.

What were the biggest iterations
that you guys went through?

Quite a few.

So we do this upfront work,
and then usually what will happen

is our clients will want us to build it
for them in most cases.

And I think one of the biggest
changes that we had is

early
on, the lab was pretty self-contained,

and then we handed it
over to the delivery team to go build it.

And we found problems with that

because we underestimated

how hard it would be to like kind of
throw it over the fence to the other team.

And so I think we had to make
some adjustments to our process of like,

how do we sort of pull
some of these people

that would be involved in the building
forward into that front end process

and extend some of these people

that are involved in the front end process
forward into the execution phase.

So there's more continuity there.

That was a big change.

I think we had to play around a lot
with pricing and figure out like,

what's the right way to price this,
to really kind of meet the need

mean pricing is something
that it's come up a lot on the podcast.

I think pricing
is one of the hardest things.

So hard.

Have you all like,
do you feel like you've got it dialed in,

totally figured out? No,

I think
we're in a good place with it right now.

We've had a few different
iterations of it,

and I think for us, understanding
where does it fit in with

our overall strategy
for working with customers

and really understanding where they are
and kind of their like buyer's

journey
made a big difference for us, right?

I think you have to keep that in mind of
like putting yourself in the customer's

shoes and understanding
how are they looking at my offer?

Like, for instance, what are they thinking
when they see this proposal?

What other alternative is
where they potentially consider

other than looking at us?

If they didn't work with us,
what else would they do?

Like,
I think that sort of empathetic approach

to looking at pricing can help you.

A lot of times

because you go
get into your customer's shoes

and then look at it
from their side of the table.

And that's been a really good exercise.

I think just listening to people, I mean,
gosh, this sounds so simple, right?

But just listen to people, you know,
and ask questions and get that feedback.

And I think it's just really important
to make sure that, like at whatever

price level you're doing
and whatever your offer is

at that price level,

that your customers walk away feeling that
they're getting good value for that,

whether it's a big price tag,
small price tag,

big deliverable, small dollar of what it

but like, do they feel like they're
they're really getting value out of that.

That's really important.

And listening for that kind of indicator

from clients can be a good guide
on setting pricing, I think.

Yeah.

Well getting a little bit closer to today,

you went through kind of another iteration
or major change in the business.

Talk to us a little bit about that.

Yeah, I think so.

You know, the most recent kind of big step
was, as I mentioned

when we first started in oh eight,

you know, I did that together
with a business partner, and we did a lot

of really good things together.

And I think both of us
benefited from that, that sort of journey

that we took together.

And but,
you know, as the years went by again,

we start looking at where are we headed
and what are we doing right now.

And, and I think that both of us
just again,

kind of being honest, like,
is this path that we're on aligned

for both of us and probably,
you know, middle part of last year.

So we started having
some of those discussions and just trying

to authentically work through like,
hey, is this working for both of us?

Or we both go to the same place
and I think it became clear

that we just had different visions,
you know, for where we were going

and where this business fits
into each of our individual goals.

And path that we're trying to follow.

And, you know, the truth
kind of emerged there.

It's like, hey, like,

I don't think that we're both aligned
on where we're trying to go necessarily.

And then then the next question is like,
okay, well, what do we do?

What do we do? Right.
And that wasn't easy.

I'm really proud
of where we ended up with that.

That could have been
a really messy situation.

You know, a lot of times

for people when they're having to sort of
figure out how to get out of partnership

or go different ways, that kind of thing.

And, you know,
I think we navigated that really well and

we ended up in a spot, both of us,
that I think we probably both

feel pretty good about.

And so the result was,
you know, what we ended up having to do

is, was figure out a way to sort of
divide up the business and do that

in a way that we could both live with it
and feel good on the other side of it.

And so we did that.

And so after kind of reworking
a few things and, you know,

now, like the brand kind of stayed with me
and we continue on that path and,

you know, largely our vision
and our mission for like how we what we do

and who we target,
that kind of stuff is still largely kind

of the same as it was
with some just sort of adjustments.

And I think that will continue
to evolve over time.

But it's kind of been a cool new journey
for me.

It's really been the first time ever
and sort of the entrepreneurship world

where I've been sort of
the only like owner of the business.

And so, you know, I've done a quite
a few things that I think, you know,

it's been good for me, like just in terms
of being able to make decisions quickly.

I think it's important to have good
advisors.

That's been really, really valuable to me
is make sure I'm surrounding myself

with people who will give me hard truths
sometimes

and the right type of encouragement,
the right type of questioning sometimes.

And I think, that share a lot of sort

of the similar worldviews and values
that's been something.

And, and then just sort of
what's been kind of interesting for me

is that I can sort of steer the business
to be a little bit more of a closer

reflection of sort of my personal values
and who I want to be as a person.

And I think in the past
when I've had partners in businesses,

I really sort of firewalled
that off, right?

Like the business is separate
then sort of maybe my like personal values

and I kind of feel another
degree of freedom now where there doesn't

really need to be much of a distinction,
like the way that I do.

The business doesn't
have to be like any distinction, different

than how I choose to do my personal values
and beliefs right?

But yeah, you said it,
but I want to kind of double down on this.

One of the things
that was going through my mind was,

okay, you no longer have a partner.

You've had partners in other ventures.

Has it been burdensome to carry the load
on your own, or has it been more freeing?

And it sounds like it's
more of the latter?

Yes, it's more of the latter.

For me,
I think one, I'm very fortunate to have

some really good members of the team
that are terrific at what they do.

Right.

And I think that I'm continuing to build
my skill set as an entrepreneur.

Right.

I think and a big part of that for me is

maybe slow down some and, you know, like,

you know, the saying like like slow as
steady, steady as fast, I've really become

I've really grown to appreciate that
saying a lot, because I do think

there's a lot of truth in that.

Is that, like sometimes taking on
too much stuff creates a lot of chaos,

and then you just sort of spend more time
fixing things or that kind of stuff.

And so there's
a lot of different philosophies on that.

Some people are like,

go really, really fast, break things fast,
make change that kind of stuff.

I don't know, that works
great for me personally.

I do a little bit better.

I've been a little bit
more deliberate, intentional and smooth,

and that's
what has sort of worked for me better.

But, you know,
I think I have quite a few friends

that are entrepreneurs, and that's
a good group to like, lean on a lot.

And then, you know, having like I said,
I mentioned,

you know, several advisors and then,
you know, we've talked a little bit

about like strategic coach program
that's been really useful to me as well.

So I think you got to have
the right support system around it.

But having a good team
makes all the difference.

It's interesting, as we've interviewed
people over the last couple of years,

individual entrepreneurs have often
said they wish they had a partner.

They wish they had a co-founder.

Other people that have had that have said,
no, I think I would have rather done it

on my own.

I don't think that one is right
and the other is wrong.

But maybe for people who are listening
and they're thinking

about taking on a partner, what advice
would you give them about that?

I think getting really clear on things
before

you get into the partnership,
it sounds really obvious, right?

But like getting things down
in a very clear agreement on

what is each partner
bringing to the relationship

and how does that tie to sharing

and the
the benefit of what is getting built?

I think being very clear about that
upfront is super important.

I think that makes sure
that those things complement

and you're not like duplicating like skill
sets like the.

I think the goal of the partnership

is that someone should bring something
that the other person doesn't have.

There needs to be this sort of puzzle
fitting process there, I think.

Right.

And I think generally making sure
there's a lot of alignment on big things.

I mean, much like even a marriage, right?

Like if I want to marry somebody
that has a similar worldview

and similar sort of values system
and sees things in a similar light,

not that any of them are good or bad
or better or worse or anything like that.

It's just that

those are really fundamental
to like working together really closely.

And if you don't have alignment
on some of those things,

it's going to be really hard
to make that work.

And so I think someone that you approach

things with a similar like view is big.

Trust is a huge one. Right.

And I think somebody that you like
being around, it's really important to

like do you feel comfortable
when you're around them.

Do you feel like do you like it?

Do you feel energized
if your energy level goes up?

The more that you engage with that person?

I think that can be a good indicator.

You need to listen to your gut
more than anything.

Like, yeah, that's one I actually that
that's one I would stress a lot.

Like there's so many times
I look back over the years when my gut

was sort of indicating something to me,
and I like override that with my mind.

And I look back and like my gut was right.

You talked earlier
about being data driven.

Yeah. You want to find the facts.

And so man does does that like create
some internal of you better believe it.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think the other one
that that complicates it is

I mean I really do think I'm an optimist.

Like I try to give the benefit of
the doubt and believe in the best about,

you know, people on the team
and who are working on whatever.

Right.

And, and I think that the gut
is an amazing indicator for things.

And at the very minimum,
I think it's important

that if you feel something
that just doesn't feel right, then

spending some time to reflect on that
and people do that in different ways.

Prayers.
One way to do it. Other people meditate.

Like I think figuring out a way to like
just listen to that

closer could serve
people really well. Yeah,

right.

You and your business partner, you had a
sounds like a very amicable split.

Yeah.

And what I'm gathering from that is

there were things that the company did
that they took and are now doing,

and there are things that you are

probably now doing that you weren't doing
before that you wanted to.

What does the company look like today?

So I think part of what we had to do
after we,

we made the transition was so
the partner in the business

had another business,
that there was some overlap operationally.

And so after the split,
a lot of those things

that were being covered
because that overlap were no longer there.

Right.

And so that was part of what I've worked
on this year is figuring out like,

where are those gaps and what's our plan
for shoring all that stuff up.

And so

I'm a big fan

of remote work, so pretty much
everybody works remote.

I'm a huge fan of utilizing

talent in even fractional roles.

So that's something
that's a little bit different

over the last couple of years, is
that people think about hiring full time

employees all the time,
and that's terrific.

But there's also a lot that you can do
by leveraging part time or contract

or freelance resources,

that I think it's a lot easier to do today
than it used to be.

And so for a lot of the stuff
that we do, we

and when I say remote,
we're talking about globally remote.

We have to build some other capabilities

in-house, like recruitment
and really kind of talent.

Identification
has been a big focus for us.

So that was a capability we didn't have
that we had to really build out.

And I think we've done a great job on that
this year, because

we've really built a process
that's designed around

funding people that as humans,
we think aligned with,

like our values as a business,
but then also have a good skill set

and it can be trusted to, you know, really
like help us like do excellent work.

And so we really had to kind of plug
a lot of those holes.

And we,
we kind of hire all over the place.

I just hired a bookkeeper
in the Philippines.

It's the first one.

I've hired someone from that
region before, and that's working out

fantastic for us right now.

And so that's kind of a

a new area where we've never had anybody
working there before.

And, so just kind of being open
globally to

where can we get
the best person that fits the need?

And that flexibility has allowed us to,

you know, really grow pretty efficiently
going back to the work itself.

So you help companies
bring ideas for software to life.

What do you think
the biggest misconception is, or their

common misconceptions that your customers
come into the endeavor with that,

if people thought through, things
might go better for them?

Yeah, I think there's kind
of two that come to mind.

One is a really common mistake.

People think that they know enough
to go ahead and start building something,

when very often they shouldn't be building
something yet, right?

Like they have a pretty good vision
of what they want to build.

They think they've got it nailed down.

So they go get developers
and they start writing code,

and then they look up in six months
or 12 months and they haven't, like,

launched anything.

They've burned all their budget
and they're trying to salvage it,

and they're fighting this sort of sunk
cost fallacy now of like,

I've already spent this much money on,
I've got a now it's going to be double.

I got, you
know, I'm not going to scrap this.

And so, you know,
you see that all the time in the space

where people are so deep into it
that they just keep dumping money.

But the problem is that oftentimes
they're not even getting any closer

to getting to that goal.

So I would say the first one
is that they probably need a greater level

of clarity before they actually start
building something.

And the other one is
that we're very fortunate today

that it's cheaper and building

software is more accessible to people
than it was in the past.

Right.
That doesn't mean building software cheap.

It just means that there's a lot more cost
effective ways

to do it now
for lots of different reasons.

And so more in the past,
like raising big money

and trying to build a big, complicated
platform, was more of the game.

I think the game now is
you got to focus a whole

lot more on the front end
about what problem

we actually solving
and should this be solved,

you know, is it a big enough problem
where there's really an opportunity

and do we really understand that
well enough

to de-risk the big investment
of actually building something?

Looking back on
your entrepreneurial journey,

what's the biggest

surprise that you've had
in all these years?

Well, the biggest surprise for me
personally, I think the biggest surprise,

like, if I could go
talk to my like 24 year old self and

is having a less glamorized view

of what
actually being an entrepreneur is versus

what being an entrepreneur is,
I think it's a lot harder is I mean,

I've heard it on tons of podcasts,
like it's way harder than you think.

It's going to take a lot longer
than you think.

Like all that stuff is definitely,
definitely true for me.

I think that
so much of the entrepreneurial journey

is about growing
as an entrepreneur, right?

Like really, because you have to develop
all these skill sets.

So you have all this variety.

You have to be decent
at such a broad spectrum of things,

and there's just no way that everybody's
like really good at that.

I think a lot of really fortunate people
that maybe have really early

and fast success
is that they have some super skills

that serve really well for doing that.

I haven't happened
to be like that type of person,

so I feel like I've had to focus a lot
more on developing myself as a person

in a lot of different areas
and continuing to do that even today.

And it really is a journey.

It's not a destination. Well said.

What's next? What's next?

Oh, I've been contemplating that
a lot recently.

I think continuing to grow in oh eight is
definitely my short term focus.

I think that we really fit
a good need in the market,

and we did a little bit
differently than a lot of folks.

And so I think that there's a way
that we can help a lot of people.

So that's definitely like my big focus
professionally in the near term,

you know, and I think just continuing
to grow the business while also

continuing to expand a lot of freedom
in other areas of my life.

I want to be a good entrepreneur,
but I want to be a good dad.

I want to be a good husband.
I want to be a good friend.

Yeah,
I want to be a good community member.

I think for me, a lot of what's next is me

continuing to try to grow in those other

complementary areas that that sort of
bring together the entire picture for me.

So a lot of it is professionally
focused to know a longer term.

I don't think this will be the last
or only business that,

that own, you know, in the future.

I think there's other things

that I would be interested
in down the road, but I think that

there's a good opportunity here
that I have right now.

It's great.

All right, last question.

Could you pick up the trumpet today?

You would not enjoy it.

Maybe you would.
I could definitely do that.

In fact, funny story by
we went to my mom's house,

I think, on holidays last year,

and we were going through
a bunch of old stuff, and my daughter

found the trumpet in the closet,

and somehow it made its way in the car
and back to our house now.

And so every once in a while,
I will hear the trumpet play.

But it's not me. It's one of the kids.

And, there's some practice
to be done there, but,

no, I don't think I could probably play
the trumpet today.

Well, Jeff, thanks for coming on
and sharing your story.

Now. It's my pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

It's been fun.

that was Jeff Francis, founder of ENO8.

To learn more, visit eno8.com.

That's e n o number 8 .com.

If you or a founder you know would like
to be a guest on In The Thick of It.

Email us at intro@founderstory.us.